Speaker 0:00

Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth. I'm your host, Anne and today we have an incredible guest who has overcome toxic leadership at work. So. Wes Love is co-founder of Culture Stoke, author of Culture Catalyst, and he helps people unpack what is really behind toxic leadership, low trust and dysfunction at work. Welcome to the show, Wes.

Speaker 2 0:24

Hey, thank you. And I'm stoked to be here. Appreciate it.

Speaker 0:26

Oh, of course. Before we dive in, I always love to ask, what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going in tough times?

Speaker 2 0:32

What, my mom, used to say this to me when I was a kid, and I hated it, but she, she would always say whenever I was going through tough times, as we do when we're a kid, she would say, this is a very small part of the rest of your life. And, now I find myself repeating it a lot to not just myself, but to my wife and kids when we go through tough times. Those are not forever. And so a very small part of the rest of your life. It's something that I stay to myself pretty regularly.

Speaker 0:58

That's a great perspective. I love it. So let's go ahead and start at the beginning. What is the most difficult work experience you've ever had to overcome?

Speaker 2 1:06

Most difficult work experience I've ever had to overcome. I, am a pretty high energy person and so I have found, that when I get into new spots that energy tends to increase and, what I've learned is that can show up to people in certain aspects that I don't take things seriously because when I get uncomfortable, I tend to lean into making jokes and trying to introduce in, infuse some levity into a situation. And so I remember when I was very young in my, pre organizational development career, that I joined a team and there was a informal leader. On the team, it was kind of the person that everybody looked to, the elder statesman as it were on the team, who aided me, would not speak to me, would not look at me, was actually brought in on the weekend to train me how things worked on the weekend and refused to let me into his truck and like to learn the job and left me in the office all day.

Speaker 2:00

Oh no.

Speaker 2 2:01

Yeah, and that was a really challenging thing because I really was, really enjoy. I thought the organization was great. It was a pretty exclusive employer. I was very lucky and very, felt very fortunate to be there. And here I joined this team and I have the kind of informal leader on the team. Everybody looks to who doesn't like me and is not quiet about it either. And so that was really challenging. And we, fast forward, we, we got to know each other a little bit through happenstance. But, a really important lesson I learned, I was having a chat with the formal leader of the team and who was great. And I just was like, I don't know what to do here. And he opened my eyes to this idea that perception is reality. And that doesn't mean that you have to change who you are when you show up, but that authenticity is really not an on and off switch. It's a volume now. And so like we have to. As we join new teams, we have to show people with our actions who we truly are. And so what I tried to lean into is I really do take this job seriously. Maybe I don't need to spend all meeting cracking jokes and maybe I can spend a little bit more of that energy and asking questions and being curious and really gleaning their understanding because I needed it and I wanted it. And so it also was a good lesson for me about owning my own behavior in situations. And if the outcomes are not great, what can I do about it? I can't really worry about what he used, you know, his thoughts or feelings, but what I can do is control himself.

Speaker 3:25

That's great advice. And what a great leader that guy was to inspire you to modify your behavior and not just let you go. 'cause there's some organizations where you make a mistake or someone doesn't like you and you're on the outside, they'll just terminate you. They're like, goodbye. Because especially in Florida, Florida is the right to work state. So you could come in with the wrong outfit on and people could be like, okay, we're gonna let you go. That was a great role model and for him to support you and really help you modify your behavior in, the organization. So was That the catalyst for you to go into organizational development?

Speaker 2 4:02

It certainly played a role wanting to as I was getting older, wanting to, thinking about legacy. Certainly played a part in that and how do I find fulfillment in this world and what really drives me from my purpose? So there was some internal perspective, but what I also came to understand was like a lot of the drivers behind. Organizations and leadership in particular, and the impact that it has on our lives as people and how we show up. And I really became fascinated with organizational behavior and organizational development because they're these microcosms of society and the role that leadership plays and then the ripple effects that has out into our world writ large was really what drove me to organizational development because I want people to live. Great lives, and I like to be a helper, and so I could do that in myriad ways. But what I found is that there was there was a need for leadership development in a way that had very little to do with organizational outcomes. And so that really, like my driver is to humanize the workplace. And that means that we've gotta humanize leadership first.

Speaker 5:06

I love that. I can tell you're very passionate about it. Your energy excitement comes through. So awesome. Going back to the situation that you just referenced, so let's say one of our listeners has a boss and the boss maybe doesn't really like him or makes the workplace very challenging for them. How do you handle that? Do you go to the boss's boss or do you go to hr Because you can hit trip wires inside certain cultures that'll just blow you up. So if you've tried to resolve things with your immediate supervisor, your immediate boss, but it hasn't gone anywhere, what do you suggest in today's workplace?

Speaker 2 5:47

It's funny you mentioned that. So I did write a book and I promise I'm not gonna talk about the book, but it, I have found that giving individual contributors, the tools to have some of those frank conversations is not like a big priority. And so it is an idea of like my next book. Would be to, like, how do you train people to have those conversations and manage up and draw boundaries effectively in the workplace? So in that instance in particular I have a pretty strong mental model that we overcomplicate the workplace. And particularly the relationship between employee and employer. What I have found in my experience is that there are very few differences between employee and employer relationship, or employee and leader relationship than any other relationship you have in your life. And so my first advice is always if this person was your neighbor, what would you do? Because when you strip away the veneer of the workplace, people are able to intuit like the quote unquote right thing to do. When you strip away that workplace. I think having the conversation and being comfortable in that, like you have just as much right to take and make space for yourself in this world. That hierarchy doesn't really play a role in that. And it's really just drawing a boundary and just like any other relationship. Seeing if that, if they are willing to acquiesce to that boundary and if they are awesome, we can work on going forward. And if not. Then it really becomes a data point for me about is this, is it worth it for me to stay here? Is this the place for me? And I understand that I'm speaking from a place of privilege that like, there's lots of options. But, the way that I always like to couch this is that if you've ever read the book Essentialism, I have it. It's a really good one. But there's a chapter in there that the author talks about, learned helplessness. And I see the symptoms of a lot of learned helplessness out in the world where people and there's a quote in there that if it wasn't so long, I would get it tattooed on my body. But the author says our ability to choose can never be taken from us. And as a matter of fact, it can't even be given away. It can only be forgotten. And so I know my is a long coat. I would tattoo it on me if it wasn't that long. But, I think just the reminder that it's like in pretty much every facet of your life, there is always a choice and you can choose to stay there. And every choice has consequence. You can choose to stay there and accept that the reality is gonna be what it's gonna be. Or you can choose to say, you know what, this. This is a important boundary or value for me. And if you're not willing to respect that, like I, the data point is I need to go find a place that, that I do fit and that will do that. Opportunities are limited for folks in certain aspects, but like your ability to choose, is one that you can only forget.

Speaker 8:20

I like that. That's fantastic. I guess I would say that right now it seems like it's hard for a lot of people to find a job. So if they're very unhappy in their job, but they feel like they need to keep their job because they have bills and finances and. Responsibilities. What advice would you give them if they're really struggling inside their job and it's impacting their marriage, their kids, their sleep, their health?

Speaker 2 8:47

Yeah. When I encounter people that are in that because it's there, there's two ways that this manifests. There are. Where opportunities are limited,, and so like having empathy for folks in situations where they feel trapped and helpless is one place. But I also, you can make, an equally compelling argument for people that, have the golden handcuffs, right? Where it's, my benefits and my paycheck, I won't get this anywhere else. And my question to folks in, in that area is always like, well, what's the price of your happiness? And I used to think that was a pretty clear cut and dry answer. But I had a client, years ago who was really like, having a pressure relief valve moment where she was like, this place sucks and I hate all this and I hate this work, and I hate this place and I hate blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I think you're at that point where it's like, what's the price of your happiness? And she really sat back and thought about it. She's the salary's really great and the schedule's really great and the benefits are really great and it really affords me a lot of opportunities to do things outside of work that are really meaningful and fulfillment. And yeah, actually the misery that I feel when I'm in this place is actually worth it because of what it does for my life at large. And if it's, if it comes to a place where it is impacting. Your marriage, if it's impacting your family life and it's impacting your happiness, I would really take a long, hard look in the mirror and say is this worth it? And I would imagine that there would be very few instances where. Onboarding and discounting self to a level where you're willing to literally take on abuse. Those instances are far and few between because there's, there, there are options. Yeah, I think that's where I would leave that one.

Speaker 10:16

Great advice. How would you explain the difference between a difficult boss, and a toxic leader?

Speaker 2 10:22

I think that difficult boss is like, where I have found difficult boss is misalignment in personalities. Like a difficult boss is somebody who just does things that you're like, I don't get why you do it the way that you do it. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. And we just see the world differently. And so it's at that kind of personality level that makes it very difficult. Another difficult boss, like I like to say, one of the more effective leadership postures to take is a emphasis on consistency. And I like to say that people can learn to cope and deal with a consistently bad boss. They can thrive under a consistently good leader. But where. Many people struggle is when their boss is inconsistent. Like some days they're great and awesome and visionary, and the next day they got cut off in traffic and now the world is ending. And like that kind of emotional whiplash can make things really difficult. Toxic leadership because I love that you use the diff the differentiator between boss and leader because like difficult bosses can still get work done and still can get out of the way and you can, have good team dynamics. Toxic leadership is really the influence that it has on the experience of doing work and like what the kind of the vibe and the energy that they create so I think it has much more to do with how it makes individuals and the team feel about themselves and their capability and how they can show up and what their potential is. Versus a bad boss is just somebody who like, doesn't get anything done or has mixed priorities, and it's a lot more transactional. I think the toxic leadership has a lot more to do with how a person shows up as a human.

Speaker 11:57

Great explanation. So how do you deal with a boss that's a micromanager? Like how does that reveal itself?

Speaker 2 12:05

Oh, such a, such an important question. And what I believe. Is that we have the micromanagement epidemic is because we promote people who are very technically skilled at the work that they do, and just assume that because they're really good at that, that technical work that they do, that they will be good at leading people who do that technical work. But what happens when you put humans? A place where they feel unstable, insecure, or unfamiliar, is that they will revert back to what they know. And so I think the real root cause is that we will promote people to positions of leadership hierarchically, but we will not train them and onboard them and develop them or even, on a more fundamental level, change their expectations about what good looks like for them. We will still manage their performance based on how their team delivers. Instead of like, how effective in their team dynamics, how effective their team is and, not just what they do and the results that they get, but also how they get there and is it aligned culturally with what we want? So the root causes that we put people in positions where if they're gonna be successful, they gotta do it on their own. And so how do you deal with people that are in micromanaging positions? It's just I have always been a fan of being, like reminding them I'll ask questions. If I have a boss that's being a micromanager, I'll ask them things like, is it is it mission critical for me to do it exactly this way? Or is there room for some autonomy in here where the outcome is what's important and how we get there? Because that is an important distinction. Absolutely. There are certain things that it's like it's mission critical that we behave this way every single time for this and for important reasons. But there's a lot more opportunity for where you can have autonomy to be self-directed within the confines of a goal in how that work gets done. And so I will ask them questions because I find that to be a, an effective way to communicate and get understanding is okay, so I see that I'm still getting the same outcome, but I'm doing it in a different way, and you're telling me I should do it this way. Is there a particular reason why it's mission critical for me to perform it this way specifically, or is that just your preference?

Speaker 14:03

Those are great questions.

Speaker 2 14:04

And they can an like, they could say, that's my preference. And when you sign the front of the check and not the back of the check, you can make those decisions. And so then it becomes okay, I'm willing to do it that way. But what I have found in more cases than not is we like our routines, we like our habits, and I liken it to my children, like when I tell 'em to clean the room, I have a vision of what the room looks like when it's done, but I'm not very specific about that. And so I've, if I'm not specific with my expectations, I really lose my ability to hold accountability for the outcome and how they get there. And so it really is like asking up leadership of like, if you want me to behave this way, is it. Is it because it's important or is it because it's your preference? And that typical reminder will is enough to at least beg a conversation about what that is? And a great place to start.

Speaker 14:50

I love the way you asked those questions to get clarification. So instead of pushing back on the Bosch that's trying to micromanage you, ask questions to really dig deep into what are their expectations, what do they want for you, and where's their wiggle room? That's great. So how can employees protect themselves when they're working in a culture of fear or constant blame?

Speaker 2 15:10

Boy, that is a fantastic question. The first thing that I would say for folks in those situations is like, organizational performance has very little to do with your character until it does. And so what I have noticed is because we put, we wrap up so much of our identity in the work that we do. That we will start to marry organizational outcomes with am I good human? Am I good person? And so unmooring those things and really putting them in their proper buckets of organizations are very rarely clear about their expectations. They don't necessarily articulate what it looks like. And so if I'm not meeting expectations, I need to learn that. Is this a skill issue or is this a willingness issue? Because if I'm not willing, it's relational. If it's a skill issue, I need training, I need support, I need development. And so I think that just insisting on what your needs are, if you're feeling afraid. Ask yourself why am I feeling afraid? And don't stop asking why until you get to, I I am scared for my job, or I'm scared for that. I'm not meeting expectations. What stands behind that fear? And then figure out what is the thing that's missing that can close that chasm and then go and ask. In my experience, a lot of people just accept the tacitly, accept the norm for what it is, instead of being just genuinely curious about is there an opportunity for mentorship here? Is there an opportunity for training here Is the is there a training document somewhere that I haven't been introduced? What is the thing that you need

Speaker 16:37

to

Speaker 2 16:37

help achieve the, what the organization is asking for? If you're able, like once you're able to again, taking it back to choice, remember that you can always ask questions. You may not get the answer that you want, but I think it's people choose to stay silent and choose to accept what is happening as this just is what it is, instead of. Insisting if you don't have the things you need to be successful, make those known. And then if the organization is unwilling or unable to provide those for you, now it provides different doors to look through.

Speaker 17:08

So why does so many workplaces call it a communication problem when the real issue is leadership behavior?

Speaker 2 17:15

Because communication is in my experience anecdotally, I don't have the data to back this up, but communication always falls in, it's always in the top five of sys, organizational problems. It's usually in the top three and it's frequently the number one because communication is big and complex and there's lots of nuance and it goes from individual to team to organization. There's different tools and stuff. So communication is an easy scapegoat because it's really hard. We're really seeing this now in the kind of return to office after. COVID. And so you're having all these workplaces that are like, we need to get people back in the office because, collaboration and because communication is more difficult and I'm old enough to remember when remote work was not as pervasive as it was, and we sucked at those things back then too. So let's not blame communication for that. And I think the more salient point is that communication in and of itself is never a problem. It can be a symptom. But what is the act? If you just say we need to communicate more? If you're communicating poorly, you're just gonna get more poor communication. But what is the problem that you're actually trying to solve? Is a much more interesting question. And even an individual can ask that if you're manager's we just need better communication around here, you can ask 'em like, what specifically is the problem? What's showing up for you that you think more communication is an answer?

Speaker 18:35

What a great question. So if the leadership above your boss seems unaware of a problem, how do you raise concerns strategically?

Speaker 2 18:44

I am just a big fan of leaning on hierarchy. As kind of your mode of communication, like that's where these issues are gonna come up, right? Because we grew up playing the game of telephone. You know how that works, right? And so when you lean on hierarchy, whereas I like to encourage organizations and people that it's like, look, we are all on the same team. We are all in this thing together. We're trying to achieve our purpose, our mission, our results together. And so if something's not working. Why wouldn't you want me to speak up? What interest do you have in keeping me silent if I'm seeing something that's not working? Because there's really only two outcomes to that conversation. Either you are going to shed new information on me that I didn't know previously, and that something is gonna click, or at least make sense to me. Like maybe I won't agree, but I can disagree and commit okay, I see what you're saying. Let's move forward, or we may both come to the understanding that it was like that was how we operated in a particular system and things have changed and we've never revisited it. Maybe it's time to have conversations about what, whatever that thing is. And so I, I think just the reminder that people like organizations I won't say don't hire people to do this, but like organizations typically don't hire people to just be compliant and do stuff and not. Use their whole brain. And if you are in an organization that's like, listen, I just pay you to do this thing X, Y, and ZI we have people that can solve that. That's a pretty compelling data point about will I be able to find fulfillment? What's the impact gonna be on my, do I feel like the ability to affect change here? And if that's important to you, that might not be the workplace, the culture for you. Yeah.

Speaker 20:18

So how important is workplace politics? Is that still your best line of protection?

Speaker 2 20:24

It depends and I hate the word, it depends, because like certain. Union represented organizations have administrative controls that are put in place versus private sector. I work I live in California. We're an at will employer, like You can be terminated at will and there's protections in place. But most organizations have processes in place to handle, disagreements, but politics is tough because politics are less formal and a lot more tribally developed where it's oh, that's not how we do stuff around here. And it's like, can you point to me a policy or procedure that says that very specifically? No. Okay, so how, and I have to be very careful especially in the organizational culture world, which is, the, what I really nerd out about because it ties directly to politics your culture is essentially just determines the acceptable and unacceptable behavior in the workplace. And you can do that through your organizational infrastructure with policies and procedures. But they're like, there's the rules as things are written. And there's the rules, like how things really happen around here. And what I encourage people to do is you wanna make those the same list. Like you, if there are expectations about how people show up, make it explicit. Because when we don't, similar to like me not giving clear expectations to my daughters, like this transverse work expectations to cultural expectations. If it's not. Clearly stated, collectively, agreed to and mutually understood. We lose our teeth for accountability. And so if you are bumping up against some political thing that's happening, asking the question is this an actual expectation of me and my job and my performance, and that's what's being held against me. And if so. Can we get that more formalized? 'cause this feels a lot more like preference than it does policy. And preference leaves a lot of subjectivity in the workplace that I don't think anybody wants leadership included.

Speaker 22:09

I like that preference versus policy. So if you're fairly new in a company, how do you find someone who's going to advocate on your behalf and find like an ally? Or even if you're looking to get promoted, how do you find someone higher up in the ranks to pull you up?

Speaker 2 22:24

You'd hope it would be your boss, but

Speaker 22:26

well, let's be realistic. That doesn't always happen.

Speaker 2 22:29

I have some guiding principles in my life and one is if you're not learning something new every day, you're doing something wrong. So I have always felt like humility has been misunderstood as some kind of awe shucks attitude. I just show up and I'm like, oh, look at me. I'm so humble. But I think humility has a lot less to do with how you show up and a lot more about how you view other people in your life. And I firmly believe that every person. That you encounter has something to teach you. And so if you're not given some formal this is your mentor, like I'm new to the organization, Ann is gonna be your go-to mentor and she's really gonna show you the ropes. One you can always ask for it, who do I go to for support? But I like to build a coalition of people that like. Comport themselves the way that I like, that I want to comport myself, that show up in the ways that I find admirable and, not turning away any opportunity to learn something new about myself or the world around me, just because a person isn't my mentor. And so I think looking for that, instead of having a person, you create like the human being that you want to become, and then you find people that. Are already there, and then you can ask them to help you. And there's lots of ways that could happen, either just through observation or mentorship or in certain cases supervision and training. But like coaching tends to be where I see a lot more of the growth in that area. And coaching can come from anybody.

Speaker 23:53

Excellent. So what makes a good employee? Because that can change over time. So like a good employee 20 years ago is not the definition of a good employee today. So what are employers looking for and what do they really value? And personality traits,

Speaker 2 24:09

right? If you could bottle and sell that answer, you'd never have to work a Daniel life again. So I'm gonna lean into the culture world again because that's where I spent a lot of my, career Now. It is interesting. I'm actually currently in school and pursuing a doctorate right now. And,

Speaker 24:23

fantastic

Speaker 2 24:24

generational culture. I think you, it's a very smart thing to do when you work three jobs as to just go back to school.

Speaker 24:29

Superman,

Speaker 2 24:30

super. Something that is for sure glutton for punishment, maybe but i'm gonna lean in on culture because like culture again is that thing that determines acceptable and unacceptable behavior. And, culture is something that is very problematic because it's so invisible to us. If you were to ask your listeners to define culture, what I would imagine is the vast majority have heard the word. But treated a lot like the wind where if you asked me to define wind, it would sound something like, there's like air and it's like moving a particular way. And that would be about it. And that's what we find with culture. But the culture is really gets to the, how an organization gets stepped on. Simon Sinek is, a big influence in my life and he's got his golden circle where he's got why. Which is your purpose, and you has what, which is the work that you do. And the catalyst for my book was really around that, how, and that how is your culture, and that's the culmination of your values and the things that you evaluate people's performance on and the things that you celebrate and what you really find important as an organization. And so I don't think that there is a clear cut answer for what makes a good employee other than an employee that embodies. Not just the, what that you do, because then you get like the highly productive a-hole, like people who are really good at their work but don't play well with others, typically are not folks that are the ones that are go, that's my person, that's, that is the person for our organization. They're typically the ones that get rewarded because they're really good at their output. And in certain cases get promoted. If you were to ask their teams, it's like that person is miserable to work with. And so it's usually the person that shows up in a way that is conducive to making the workplace more than just a workplace, and or making, it embodies the culture and the vibe that you're trying to get and their output will may not be as good as this other person, but how they get there matters a lot more in my opinion.

Speaker 26:17

I love it. So it's like embodying that balance of quality output, but yet also the social factor of,, being a good team player, caring about your fellow teammates. Yeah. So how do you know when it's time to leave an organization?

Speaker 2 26:31

There's a couple different things that come to mind. I think the most obvious is when there is a ceiling. I can't get past this and my desire is to continue to grow, right?, I had a boss very early on in my career where I asked oh, I would like to go and be developed in this area. And they very plainly and bluntly, respectfully was like, that's not what I hired you to do. I hired you to do this thing, and that's all I really want from you. So when there is that barrier where it's but I want more, if they are not able or willing to give you, that's a good indicator, like maybe I've outgrown this place. If you have a on a ethical standpoint, like if you have a workplace that is,, habitual line stepper on boundaries and treats you like crap, and you've done your due diligence of like, how do I, hey, I need respect here in whatever way respect works. And they're like, no, that's, we don't care. That's a pretty good indicator that it's not the place for you. But I also think like seasonally I'm an elder millennial, so generational cultures is something that I will nerd out on a lot because I find them endlessly fascinating. But the idea that you join a workplace and the goal is to stay there until you retire is a bit dated. I don't think that is, that should be the expectation anymore, but we are a lot more transitory in our workplace. I want to say that the average tenure of an employee is like 3.9 years.

Speaker 27:48

Wow.

Speaker 2 27:49

And I think that we need to de-stigmatize people leaving organizations, for the right reasons that they're leaving because they, built their company out of hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's one thing, but if people feel like they outgrown the organization or they're looking for something more, as a leader, why wouldn't you want them like your. It's a bummer when people leave, but if people leave because they, you've opened a new door to an opportunity they never had before, like that feels like a win for a leader to me. And I think that feeling of loss is a part of the privilege of being leadership is like when you see good people leave for the right reason, it means you've done something right for them.

Speaker 28:28

One of my personal opinions is that I think that companies don't realize the sunk cost of an employee, I worked for an organization, they're like, Hey, if you're unhappy, there's the door. And it's like they thought they could just churn and burn their employees. Hey, we'll just bring someone else in. But they don't realize the cost of bringing that person in, training them, getting them up to speed, versus really working through an issue that an employee had. But anyway, if one of our listeners is working in a toxic workplace right now and they're just really struggling, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 2 29:03

This is the very small part of the rest of your life. That would be the first thing I would say. Hi mom. And I would say somewhere along the lines, societally, we have picked up this idea that we are either not worthy or that our existence is somehow secondary to conflict, our job or whatever. And so I think just like the reminder that it doesn't have to be this way. And you can be the catalyst for change. And if you sit there and you wait for somebody else to make the change that's gonna make your life better, you're gonna be waiting for a really long time. And while I have my litany of issues with our organizational construct as a whole, and with leadership in particular. We as individual contributors still bear like the onus of our own behavior. And then it's if something's not working for you, continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result, has a particular definition, of insanity. So if something's not working for you, like you have just as much right to take and make space for yourself in this world as anybody else, and just because you are, you sit a particular place in the org chart doesn't mean that you are somehow less of a human being. And I think that a leader leaders could do with a healthy bit of a reminder that like the reason that leadership is such an important responsibility is because it's not about you anymore. And I think we forget that too much, that oh, I'm in this position because I've worked really hard and I've gotten myself to this spot, and my job now is to make sure that we deliver results. And it's Nope. That's what a manager does. A leader is a person that people choose to follow because they're worth following. And so if you don't have that in your life. You gotta go find it because if you're waiting for your boss to somehow come to the dawning realization, unless something drastically changes in their own life, like we can only be responsible for owning our own behavior and for accepting the things that we accept and for making the changes for things that we can no longer tolerate.

Speaker 31:01

Wow, someone really needed to hear that today. I love that. That landed for all of us. So going through all these workplace challenges, what have all these life lessons taught you?

Speaker 2 31:11

Oh I think, this is where I have to be careful because I can get a little fatalist and it can it can, it sounds really existential, but it's like one of my personal guiding principles of is it's not that serious. And I understand that we are dealing with, really significant things in our lives, but at the end of the day, there still are lives. And so I just think, it's absurd that we're here, right? When you think about it, like from an existential standpoint, like it's statistical miracle that our planet exists and it's even more so that like you, when parents do what parents do to, to create children like that, you were the byproduct of that. I think that we are too quick to discount how special this insignificant, this life is. The story of your life is being written and one of the most fundamental choices that we have as an as individuals Is we get to choose whether we are a character that the story is being written about or the author, in which case we are writing our story. And I would love to see people choose the latter way more often, than I have. And so that's what I've learned is it's like I want to. Make sure that in every situation possible, I am always going, am I advocating for myself? Not in a selfish way, am I taking care of myself? Not in a selfish way, but so that I can be the best for the people that need me. Like it really is an interesting relationship I need to learn how to manage myself so that I can be there for the people who need when they.

Speaker 32:31

I love that, and we should all be the authors of our lives. So tell us about your book and where can people find you and follow you?

Speaker 2 32:39

Oh, the funny thing about the book is I really I didn't write a book to sell a book, and so I really just don't talk about it very often. I wrote a book because it was a personal goal. I just wanted to write a book. And so I, that's okay. I say I wrote a book to, to write a book. Not sell a book, but you can find it on Amazon. And it's a, there's an audio book on Audible if you like the dult tones of this guy's voice, you can hear it. And for four hours and 37 minutes talk about organizational culture. So you can find that on Amazon. Barnes and Noble. You can find me on LinkedIn mostly. I do have an Instagram that I basically just, post stories of things that I'm telling myself to be a better human in the gym. And, you can find on my company Culture Stoke, at culture stoke.com. You can reach out if you, if something, resonated with you and. I would love, I'd love to hear and connect. 'cause I'm a absolute people nerd at heart, so I really just love to learn about people.

Speaker 33:29

I love it. I'm a people nerd too. Yes.

Speaker 2 33:31

I like

Speaker 33:31

you. Yeah. Thank you, Wes. This has been such an inspiring conversation, we appreciate you sharing your journey with us, and if you found this episode helpful, please share with someone who might be facing a toxic workplace and they need to hear this message of hope and advice. I'll see you next time on overcoming Anything.