Anne Vryonides 0:00

Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth. I'm your host, Anne Vies, and today we have an incredible guest who has overcome the family that looked normal. So today's conversation is for anyone who grew up in a family that may have looked normal from the outside. I felt painful, confusing, unsafe, or deeply lonely on the inside. So we're talking about childhood trauma, family wounds, attachment boundaries, and what it really takes to heal the damage that's invisible to other people. So joining me today is Dr. Patricia Grinnell, a psychologist, bestselling author, and trauma informed speaker who brings both clinical and lived experience to these compassionate conversations. About recovery, trauma, relationships. So welcome to the show.

Patricia Grenelle 0:47

Thank you very much.

Anne Vryonides 0:48

Awesome. So before we dive in, I always love to ask, what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going during tough times?

Patricia Grenelle 0:55

You are not alone.

Anne Vryonides 0:56

I agree. That's always reassuring How can someone make sense of a childhood that looked normal on the outside, but felt painful or chaotic on the inside?

Patricia Grenelle 1:06

I don't know. It's, it's an interesting phenomenon because I didn't realize that I had been sexually abused until I was 27 years old. And my therapist told me that I was a statistic because I thought everybody's family had somebody like that in a bed, was oversexed or tried to have sexual, accounts with people. For me, growing up, I thought I had a nice, normal family. I expected, I told people that I had a good childhood the whole bit. Even my therapist, when I told him, I said I had a good childhood, and he said, wait a minute, what about this, the, abuse? And I said, oh, I didn't realize it was abuse. He says, yes, that was sexual abuse. So I'm like, wow. I was shocked. So I basically came from there and tried to learn to become more, independent from the relationship issues that I'd had as a child. And I discovered that what goes on in your childhood has a great deal to do with what happens when you're adult and in your adult relationships. So that was a surprise for me.

Anne Vryonides 2:08

Wow. I can't even imagine. So were those repressed memories or were you aware of the experiences that you had as a child? Because sometimes when people go through trauma, there's that blocked memory. They're like, oh, there's parts of my childhood I don't remember. So did you experience that or were you fully aware of everything that happened.

Patricia Grenelle 2:27

I was fully aware of everything that happened. It started when I was six years old, and the problem was I didn't have any language or, I didn't know how to speak about it. I didn't know how to tell anybody because, at that age I wasn't even, I didn't even realize what was going on. So that was, that was difficult, but I knew the whole time.

Anne Vryonides 2:46

Oh, wow. I, I can't even imagine how painful that must have been for you. So there wasn't anyone that you could confide in. Did you have any siblings?

Patricia Grenelle 2:54

I had a, a sister who was 14 months older than me, and she was more abused than I was by the same person. And she has since passed. And the book that I wrote, I dedicated to her because of what she went through. As a child.

Anne Vryonides 3:08

Oh, wow. That must have been so traumatic too, to see her go through it. As well as you It was,

Patricia Grenelle 3:15

yeah. At the same time.

Anne Vryonides 3:16

So then after you had an awareness of what was going on through your therapist, did you isolate and just cease all contact with your family? And with that person, or how did you work through that?

Patricia Grenelle 3:28

Yeah, I never did cease contact with the family or that person. We stayed friends and relations the entire time. He even encouraged me later in my later life to do some other, sexual things that were outside of the marriage and, he encouraged me and my husband to participate in, swinging that was outside the marriage,

Anne Vryonides 3:48

wow.

Patricia Grenelle 3:49

It really, it took a toll on me as far as what was,, what there was for me to, do. And like I said, I didn't know that all of this stuff as a child was gonna come back to haunt me as an adult. In my relationships with people.

Anne Vryonides 4:04

So was your husband very supportive in helping you work through these emotions and these experiences that you still may get triggered with?

Patricia Grenelle 4:12

My first husband was not helpful at all. He was, controlling. He was a misogynist, a narcissist, and he told me that if I left him, he would kill me. My second husband, I told him that I was gonna go on three months of active duty in the US Army military. And he said, alright, don't come back. What? So with these situations, I was like, oh, okay. This is interesting.

Anne Vryonides 4:34

Wow. So not only were you processing your childhood that you thought was normal, that you found out later wasn't, then you're in these relationships and you're not receiving any support about trying to heal the past, let alone what you're experiencing in the future. So what did you do? How did you make it through this challenging period in your life?

Patricia Grenelle 4:56

My therapist was probably the best person that helped me through it because he kept working me through it, processing it, and he was available all the time, which really helped. And, it was, I'm not sure how to explain it. It was a, a good thing that he was available to me, the way he was because my relationships with my husbands were really poor. And a lot of that was because of the childhood abuse, because I had grown up thinking that this is the way people are supposed to be. Men are supposed to abuse women, and that's expected. That's kind of a, odd thing I guess.

Anne Vryonides 5:28

So is this what prompted you to become, a psychiatrist and to go into, the study of trauma and as well, helping yourself heal as well as in turn helping other people?

Patricia Grenelle 5:40

Yes, I've, always been interested in education and neither one of my husbands wanted me to get any education, so my first husband said, no, you're not gonna go to school. I didn't go to college, but I took correspondence courses from all the universities across the United States, and I finally collected enough that I was able to get a degree. I got a degree in business administration and psychology. So then I wanted to use the degree in when I lived with my second husband in Tennessee and they said, oh, we don't care if you have a degree. You can't be a program manager unless you're a secretary first. I said, what? I said, yeah, you come and work as a secretary and then we'll see from there. So I knew that I was a. Sergeant First class in the United States Army Reserve, and I knew that they didn't treat me like that. They treated me with respect and everything that was good. So I contacted my handler in St. Louis and I said, have you got any, long tours or short tours, and she says, yeah, we have three months at Nova Scotia, or three months at Camp Edwards. I said, okay, nevermind. I called back two more times before the third time when I called back and I said, where is Camp Edwards anyway? And I heard rusting in the background and like they were holding out a map and everything, and they'd go, Cape Cod, and I said, oh, I'll go there. That was a, a very, big change in my life. That was for the good.

Anne Vryonides 7:00

So did you leave your husband and then you reenlisted for three months or were you still married at the time?

Patricia Grenelle 7:06

I was an US Army reservist, so I continued all the time as a reservist. But I went just on active duty every once in a while. And, yeah, I left my husband and when he said, don't come back, I said, okay. He says, do you hear what I said? And I said, yes, I did. He said, okay, fine. That was the end of that. So basically I felt like I had just, disengaged from him completely at that point because I couldn't get a job in Tennessee and I couldn't, stay there, the house and that sort of thing.

Anne Vryonides 7:34

So how did you make it through this time? Because like you didn't really have. The support of a partner. I'm sure the military isn't exactly warm and fuzzy, so where did you get the emotional sustainability that you needed during that time?

Patricia Grenelle 7:49

Actually, the people in the military were very warm and fuzzy in comparison to what I had been used to.

Anne Vryonides 7:55

Oh,

Patricia Grenelle 7:55

really?

Anne Vryonides 7:55

Okay.

Patricia Grenelle 7:56

Yes. I really loved being on active duty. They treated me very well, and they respected me. And when I got to Cape Cod, I met several people, men who wanted to date me, and then a man came in on the second rotation that, he was a supervisor over the rest of the men. He was a major and we met. We went out for dinner that night, along with the colonel and some other people, and I started to understand what was going on with him and found him really funny. He kept telling jokes about things and I was laughing and laughing, and finally the colonel said, I'm leaving because he wanted to date me even though he was married. But, so I started seeing this gentleman and he was only there for two weeks, so we saw each other for two weeks and then, he went back to, upstate New York where he was assigned, and I would go to Albany or upstate New York to see him on the weekends. And he'd come back down on the weekends to see me. And so I finally ended up marrying him. And, he's very supportive. He's been very supportive of me and my book and of my, past and, relationships, and he's just, he's great.

Anne Vryonides 9:02

That's wonderful. You absolutely deserve a good guy considering everything that you've been through. So how can someone make sense of a childhood that like looked normal on the outside, but then they realize that they have been through trauma, and how do you validate your trauma when nothing looked wrong to other people?

Patricia Grenelle 9:22

It's hard to do that because. It was interesting. My sister, my other sister, I had a younger sister who was 10 years younger than me. I told her that I was writing this memoir and she said, why? And I said, because it's important. And she said, almost everybody's had some kind of problem like that. What, how, what's different about this? And I said, let me ask you, do you feel that your sexual abuse was important in your life? She stopped for a minute and she said, yes it was. I said, okay. That's why I'm writing it. Wow. Because I wanted people to be aware that there are things that go on in families that other people don't know about and that they can, do something about. There is a quiz called Ace, which is the Adverse Childhood Experience Test. You can get it on Google. And find out, what points in your childhood may have been traumatic for you. And that's very helpful in finding out if you are being abused now in the relationships that you have with your adult friends and family. I.

Anne Vryonides 10:17

Great. We'll link that down below in show notes so people can take that test. So what are some signs that family trauma is still affecting someone years later and they may think moved on from it. But what are some of the signs that it's still lingering?

Patricia Grenelle 10:32

Hypersensitivity, I have that if my husband walks up behind me or he's there, suddenly when I'm not expecting it, I'll go, ah, and when people get ready to, hug me, I stiffen up and I'm like, Ooh, I don't wanna hug anybody. So there are certain things like that, that probably will never go away. But there are other things that, like my anger and, some of that stuff has been pretty well calmed down, which is good.

Anne Vryonides 10:56

Oh, excellent. So how do childhood trauma and attachment wounds shape someone's self-worth? Their adult relationships and the patterns that keep coming up in their life?

Patricia Grenelle 11:08

Wow. There are attachment, there's attachment theory, the whole theory on that, and it depends a lot on what happened when you were a child. There's four different, attachment types that you can be involved in. And a lot of it depends on not only your child childhood, but the parents or the people who brought you up., there's an ongoing thing with that through your life. Something else I learned too was that anybody who's been, sexually abused, will probably have a later in life, problem, physical problem,

Anne Vryonides 11:40

like a physical manifestation of disease because of the emotions that were trapped in their body. Or

Patricia Grenelle 11:45

like I have Parkinson's.

Anne Vryonides 11:46

Oh, wow. And how has that been challenging to know that was connected to situations that happened to you a long time ago?

Patricia Grenelle 11:54

I can't directly connect it, but I believe that, that's one of the things that I'm going through that probably was. Starting way back when I was a kid. And, it's been difficult to work through the symptoms of, Parkinson's. And sometimes what's the most difficult part is when I'm trying to work with the computer and the mouse. The mouse goes all over the screen and I can't get it to stop on an X.

Anne Vryonides 12:17

Oh wow. So

Patricia Grenelle 12:17

that's really frustrating. So that was going on with me while I was writing the book, and that was difficult.

Anne Vryonides 12:22

I can imagine. So if someone listening has experienced sexual abuse, what would you suggest that they do to help resolve some of the trauma that still lingers in their mind, in their body, so they don't get to the point where they have a disease.

Patricia Grenelle 12:39

See somebody, see a therapist, find a good therapist that you can, well work well with. Do the research, read about. Complex PTSD, and there are hotlines available now that weren't available when I was going through it. The RAIN hotline, there's a, C-P-T-S-D, foundation hotline and society for Children of. Society for the care of children. All of these places are available for people to contact and talk to them about what's going on and they need to come up with that and do it.

Anne Vryonides 13:10

Okay. Alright. I'll look up those phone numbers and we'll link that down below in show notes as well. How did you begin to overcome your own family trauma and what did this healing journey look like for you?

Patricia Grenelle 13:21

It really started when I went to, Massachusetts to Cape Cod. That's when it began to look up for me when I met my husband, my current husband. And, I incidentally got a master's degree in, counseling. And a master's degree in clinical psychology. And then I got my doctorate degree and I got all these with my third husband. I would never have got been able to get those with my first two husbands. So he was supportive of that as well.

Anne Vryonides 13:45

That's fantastic. So how does survivors of family trauma struggle with boundaries, guilt, and self projection as adults and how do you suggest they begin to work through that? Maybe they can't afford a therapist or maybe they're not ready to see a therapist. Are there ways that they can try and work through this themselves?

Patricia Grenelle 14:05

They need to try to get as much information as possible about it, so that they understand what they're feeling has to do with what happened to 'em as a child. There's a lot of it that you think, oh gosh, that's why I feel that way. It's just, you have to go with it. And like I said, the hotlines are very important because you can call and talk to somebody during that period of time where you're feeling uncomfortable and you can, get help from somebody. Right now, they're 24 hour hotlines.

Anne Vryonides 14:32

I wasn't aware of that, but we will make sure that's available to all our listeners. So let's say someone begins starting to set boundaries with their family, and the family's wait a minute, we're not used to this. So they start to backlash on a person and they make 'em feel shame and guilty for setting boundaries with 'em. How do you suggest that someone. Handles backlash from their family.

Patricia Grenelle 14:56

I think it really depends on the family and the circumstances, and the, boundaries as well. If they're really serious boundaries, you need to go with it regardless. And if it means, stepping away from the relationship, then you have to do that because you have to maintain your boundaries as an adult. You have boundary issues, a lot of boundary issues when, you, live a life where he was, sexually abused as a child. And there's a lot of shame with it too. The, shame is, heartfelt and it's, it's ongoing, but it's something that, you can deal with. And, there are triggers that you will have on an ongoing basis, things that set you off. Maybe somebody will say something that sounds similar to what happened when you were a child, or you'll see something that may remind you of an incident when you were a child. Those, those things get to you too. So you kinda have to be aware of what some of them are. So you can say to yourself, oh, wait, I know that. I know where that came from. I know why.

Anne Vryonides 15:53

So do you have any tips if someone's experiencing that shame right now? How do you resolve shame?

Patricia Grenelle 15:59

I would think calling the hotlines and talking to them about it because it's a one-on-one conversation and they don't see each other and it's private and, the people there can help you work through it.

Anne Vryonides 16:10

Okay. And what does Complex PTSD look like? Because you mentioned that earlier. What does that look like in everyday life and how would a woman recognize if she has it or not?

Patricia Grenelle 16:21

The difference between complex PTSD and PTSD is that the complex PTSD. Generally happens when you're a child or when, over a long period of time if you were a prisoner or something like that. Whereas just PTSD, you can be in an auto accident and have PTSD from that. Basically what you'd look for would be, okay. Concern about what's going on. If it was an accident, you get really freaked when you're out driving. If it's a complex PTSD and it stems from childhood sexual abuse, it may get triggered when you are, maybe watching a movie or doing something else that you see and it reminds you of the situation that you had. When you were a child.

Anne Vryonides 17:03

Okay, good point. So how are depression and trauma connected and how do you know when depression may actually be rooted in unresolved trauma?

Patricia Grenelle 17:13

That's a difficult one. Trauma is by itself, but depression is a whole different animal. It's difficult to, describe depression. The best way I can think of describing it is I had a, client when I was doing my, I was working as a forensic psychologist and I had a client who killed his wife with a baseball bat and an ax. And he had depression. He was not a sociopath. He had major depression, and it was something that even I was surprised at that he didn't have other things going on. He did have some, hallucinations, which went along with it, but depression in itself is very, very, very difficult to, do anything with. And, I don't know what else to say. It's just something that you have to deal with on a regular basis and work through with a therapist.

Anne Vryonides 18:01

Okay. Yeah, I know. 'cause there's different levels of depression. I just didn't know if you noticed with your trauma informed background, if there was a connection between the depression and the. And the trauma. But how does someone grieve a family that they wish they had while accepting the reality of the family they got?

Patricia Grenelle 18:20

I think that they have to be, open to looking at possibilities in the family and see what was going on in the family besides that. And, be, willing to, open up about it, be willing to talk about it if the family members are willing. And, that's about all I can say.

Anne Vryonides 18:37

And so what does healing look like if you never get closure? Can you heal without an apology, accountability or reconciliation from the people?

Patricia Grenelle 18:47

Yes, you can. You can heal without that because I healed without it. My sister who passed on has did not heal, did not do that. She did not heal from it, and she was never told an apology or anything, so it was very difficult for her. She had, I think four different husbands. And she had a very confusing life that was difficult for her to deal with.

Anne Vryonides 19:09

And so how do you think your journey is different from hers because you were willing to forgive them? Maybe not forgive, maybe that's too far, but I guess accept the situation versus your sister.

Patricia Grenelle 19:21

I feel good that I was able to accept it. I wish that she could have learned to accept it for what it was, instead of being hateful and angry about all of it, because she just got to the point where she ignored, anything in the family that had to, anything to do with him.

Anne Vryonides 19:36

And so do you think that anger just consumed her because she never resolved those emotions?

Patricia Grenelle 19:42

Yes, I do.

Anne Vryonides 19:43

Wow. I'm glad that you were able to find the peace and the acceptance in, in what you had been through, and I'm sure that writing the book was very therapeutic and very healing For you to share your story and set yourself free emotionally.

Patricia Grenelle 19:56

It was very helpful. Even my husband said he thought it was therapeutic for me.

Anne Vryonides 19:59

Oh, amazing. So what does it feel to reclaim your voice after experiencing everything that you've gone through, where you were maybe dismissed silence, or your truth, wasn't even recognized? How does that feel to you?

Patricia Grenelle 20:14

Feels good. It feels great to be recognized. It feels great to be respected. To be treated like a person, like a humanoid, bit of a hemorrhoid,

Anne Vryonides 20:22

I like that. I might have to borrow that to be treated like a humanoid versus a hemorrhoid. That's funny. So how do people stop repeating trauma driven patterns in their life with love, friendships, or parenting?

Patricia Grenelle 20:33

Boundaries. Boundaries are really important. Education about how things like that go awry, how boundaries go awry. There's a lot of information out there that can be accessed and, is a good support system for somebody who really wants to learn about it and get to know it better.

Anne Vryonides 20:50

Okay. And a lot of times people hear. Boundaries. Boundaries. Set boundaries. But any tips for setting boundaries? Because I think sometimes people forget that the boundaries are for you and not really about the other person. So any advice on how to create strong boundaries?

Patricia Grenelle 21:06

I think you just have to be firm about it because people are, people who are not used to your boundaries are gonna try to. Cross 'em. And I think that if you're firm about it and you let them know that no, this is not gonna be okay, that they will recognize at some point that they can't do that anymore. Or if they don't, then you don't need to have any relationship with them anymore because if they can't respect your boundaries, they can't respect you.

Anne Vryonides 21:32

So true. People can't respect your boundaries. They can't respect you. I like that. That's golden. So any advice for someone who is maybe realizing that they experienced some sexual ill trauma or they had a childhood that wasn't ideal? What advice would you give them?

Patricia Grenelle 21:49

Read my book for one thing because it's a book that tells about how that goes on and what it looks like. I've had, people on reviews say that it's a book that is, even though that it's a heavy subject, that it's it's positive and. Endearing at the end of it, you feel good about it rather than, oh my gosh, I wish I hadn't read that. I think that's important, and being willing to talk to somebody about it, I think is really important. You've gotta be open enough to be able to talk to somebody, even if it's on the hotlines.

Anne Vryonides 22:20

Okay.

Patricia Grenelle 22:20

Just get started.

Anne Vryonides 22:21

Yeah. Just open up about it. And maybe you're right. Maybe they just start on a confidential hotline so no one knows who they are and they just open the floodgate.

Patricia Grenelle 22:31

Right.

Anne Vryonides 22:31

Any other advice that you'd like to share with our listeners based on your experience and your healing journey?

Patricia Grenelle 22:37

I can't really think of anything else. There is a book that I found that was very good. It's called Complex PTSD, from Surviving to Thriving by Pete Walker, and it was excellent.

Anne Vryonides 22:48

Amazing. Okay, great. We will go ahead and link that down in show notes as well as a link to your book so people can find that and read that as well. Okay. So this has been a very insightful conversation. I have all the compassion and love for you and your experience and what you've been through and. I'm proud that you've made it this far on your journey. Where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about what you do if you're still in practice, and how they can reach out and connect?

Patricia Grenelle 23:17

I'm on, I have a website. It's patricia grinnell.com. I'm on substack, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, so any of those places I can be found.

Anne Vryonides 23:26

Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with someone who might be facing a similar challenge and needs to hear this message of hope. I'll see you next time on overcoming Anything.